Small Format Symbiotik, Your Thoughts, Opinions, and Experiences Please

**bowtie427ss** · May 15th, 2007, 02:52 AM

I'm hoping my "Altec mentors" can shed some light, and maybe even bust a myth.

I recently acquired 9846 studio monitors equipped with 802-8D drivers on 511 horns, 501 network with the 30904 EQ/attenuator/zobel and 411-8A woofers.

I was very surprised to discover that the 802-8D is a "symbiotik" driver.

The symbiotik phrams seem to get mostly bad press and reviews, yet it seems to me it was equally if not more expensive to produce, and it seems like Altec sure made a lot of 'em.

Is the 30904 the secret to getting hifi sound from the "symbi" equipped drivers?

I have not heard these yet as i'm in the midst of restoring the cabinets and replacing the caps.

I'm trying to remain faithful that i won't be disappointed with lack of good HF response, is that just wishful thinking?

**Ronald Lee** · May 15th, 2007, 05:00 AM

I don't have the fancy instrumentation that GM, Old-guys etc has, but the symbiotik diaphragms were designed for higher-power voice PA systems. I solved the problem when I build my speaker systems of 2 Altec 414-8C, 806-8A/811, by using a Electro-Voice T350 tweeter for the the top end. Works very nicesly.

**Old Guy** · May 15th, 2007, 05:17 AM

The 802 is NOT Symbiotik. Somebody has changed them at some point.

Yes it was as expensive, but only to gain more power handlig at the expensie of HF extension.

The crossover won't help the Symbiotik. Personally I don't think the mylar edge sounds as good- some are happy with them. You pays yer money...

My inclination would be to restore the cabs to original, I would Ebay the phragms and get the right ones.

**bowtie427ss** · May 15th, 2007, 11:48 AM

802, 804, 806 are alum. loaded for various studio/HIFI apps while 807, 808 are Symbiotik loaded for PA/MI high power apps.

The 802 is NOT Symbiotik. Somebody has changed them at some point

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Prior to yesterday these are almost verbatum the statements i would have made.

Once again, i am forced into the reality that there are no rules without exceptions where Altec is concerned.

As far as i can tell from the copious amounts of literature i have gleaned, ALL of the systems produced by Altec using the 411-8A and 413-8A woofers came from the factory equipped with symbiotik diaphrams.

If any of you out there can produce an 802-8E, i think you'll find that to be a second model of 802 also factory equipped with a symbiotik phram.

Here's a pic of my "dirty little secret"

forums

GM · May 15th, 2007, 02:30 PM

Greets!

LOL! Why am I not surprised after all the other inconsistancies exposed here! The few 9846s I've auditioned didn't have Symbiotik AFAIK based on my efforts to try to tame the pair of early 808s I still have since nothing I did completely rid them of their harshness, and by the time I shelved them enough to flatten them out to ~20 kHz they didn't have any real dynamic headroom left, so IMO the plot I referenced isn't from any speaker loaded with them.

This would explain why this pub's plot didn't jive with my recollection though and would go a long ways towards explaining why it was a commercial flop since you rarely get a second change to make a good first impression: http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...itor/page3.jpg

Bottom line, I imagine you'll have to swap the diaphragms if you want high SQ HF.

GM

**Old Guy** · May 15th, 2007, 02:58 PM

One picture is worth a thousand words. forums

I would love to see what a 511E/288G would do for that setup...

Oddly- I have seen 802D's that weren't Symbitoik-wonder if they were made both ways?

Curiouser and curiouser...

GM · May 15th, 2007, 03:49 PM

Greets!

802, 804, 806 are alum. loaded for various studio/HIFI apps while 807, 808 are Symbiotik loaded for PA/MI high power apps.

The 30904 will tame the latter a bunch, but will never make it suitable for studio/HIFI.

If this isn't good enough extension, then you can add a by-pass cap around the 30904 to 'lift up' the extreme HF: http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...-8a/page02.jpg

GM

**bowtie427ss** · May 15th, 2007, 04:00 PM

Well the plot thickens, yesterday when i initially discovered the foilcals indicating 802-8D was symbiotik, i just popped the outer cover to expose the black phenolic loading cap.

Time didn't allow me to investigate further. Now after reading Art J's post i thought i'd pop one open and pop the loading cap off.

BEHOLD!!!! an aluminum tagential surround phram!

I didn't pull the phram to verify the number as it's stuck pretty fast and it needs to be done in a better place with better tools than i have here at my desk.

This just gets wierder as both the sensitivity and frequency response claims vary greatly between the spec sheet GM posted the link for, and this one at the "Altec Pro" site:
http://www.altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage...r%20System.pdf

I think most of the catalogs and spec sheets for the Barcelona, and Santiago systems indicate driver models that we all know to be symbiotik as well, pretty sure the 9846A sheet lists the 808-8A as a component.

Any guesses if Altec might have made these changes to throw folks off from making "sound alike" copies?

Is this just some of the crazy practices observed during the Ling years?

My apologies to the board for not investigating beyond the loading caps in the first place.

**bowtie427ss** · May 15th, 2007, 04:08 PM

I would love to see what a 511E/288G would do for that setup...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is a wild hair that will haunt me well into the future, it'll require a yet further extension of the back of the cabinet to accomodate them i'm sure.

This whole system design seems to be a collection of afterthoughts.

I'm pretty sure the all aluminum phrams are original to these drivers that say they're symbiotik, one phram has been repaired (lead in conductor of course) and that's the only one that shows any evidence of having been opened in the last 30 years.

I have 802-8G's with fresh pascalite phrams that i'll roll in place of the 802-8D's until i get another set of aluminum 8 ohm phrams, i only have 16 ohm phrams on hand.

**bowtie427ss** · May 15th, 2007, 04:14 PM

Hi Gang, my 9846-8a's came as shown in the reference with the 21597 aluminum element.
802-8d
Definitely not symbiotic
Does yours have the 21545 as shown with the 9846a ?? Altec throws us again.
I think yours is an uncommon exception.........................

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As contradictory as the literature can sometimes be, i wasn't sure whether to trust the reference manual, or the foilcal on the driver.

I also stand corrected as GM and OG were right about 802's being aluminum, i thought i was going to prove the contrary. The joke is on me! forums

Would be interesting to know what phrams are really in the 807's and 808's installed in the home systems using the 411 and 413 woofers.